Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Software isn't difficult to abstract for me, but that's likely due to my programming background.

7:48 PM

Also, "software" is a bit reductive when used to refer to what people would commonly refer to as a consciousness because most software isn't written to be self-mutable

7:49 PM

But that's what you get when you utilize models

computer metaphors always fall apart.

Not necessarily

7:54 PM

When between similarly-knowledgeable programmers they can be quite effective

Silina, I'm fine with that, do you mean to say you agree on the state of things while disagreeing on the abstract interpretation?

7:59 PM

Silicon is a poor substrate to model the affairs of carbon based life within.

8:00 PM

It works on some levels, but only with the greatest expenditure of resource.

I'm having problems keeping motivation

In what sense are you losing motivation?

I've learned that vocalization development is about 50% tupp learning to speak better and 50% host learning how to listen for tupp

And how do you know it is like that? (edited)

It certainly isn't an unreasonable estimate.

6:02 AM

Though, that "50%" on the tulpa's end is also quite a bit of their... developing, in general.

@Deleted User I obviously meant subjectively, every single thing said here is based on subjective experiences, it is implied at this point

6:03 AM

beep boop

I think only our wishful thinking tells us that tulpa can try to contact host and host doesn't hear them. (edited)

6:05 AM

People really want to believe their tulpas are like independent persons from the beginning and just have trouble with communication. I think it's bullshit.

I would say that at the very least, there is no precedent in studies of the brain, whereas there is quite a bit of precedent for development of any mental phenomenon taking time and persistent effort (or prolonged/powerful external influence such as injury, extended abuse, consistent exposure to a specific culture, etc) to achieve any degree of automaticity.

@Deleted User Since that is getting more into the... general 'philosophy of tulpas', I suppose, I'll answer here.

6:56 AM

Luna - Today at 23:55
What if a tulpa in the beginning is just a projection? How should we accelerate progress without assuming in your opinion, @Winter ? Not that I'm against your values but I remind you that people have different criteria. Some of them value progress over consistency. Do you think they can achieve the same progress in similar time without assuming?

Ok

Quite frankly, I think that if somebody is trying to make a tulpa as fast as possible without regard for whether or not they successfully do so, I think they are missing the point entirely.

And what do you mean by "successfully"? (edited)

Simple - making a tulpa that is actually thinking... as independently as a tulpa can 'think' relative to the host. This, compared to just making a model of a character and projecting desired responses onto it, or a character that is manouvered around in a mockery of a normal person. Often demonstrably separate from a tulpa in how they only exhibit singular and/or highly caricatured "personality traits" rather than developed personalities, for extensive periods of time.

6:59 AM

I certainly do think that these can develop into a tulpa with time and continued effort, however... that is still a large delay - certainly a larger one than steady progress would typically yield.

7:00 AM

Essentially, I support trying to make consistent, reliable progress rather than take a gamble that can often result in large delays or self-delusion in some cases.

^^

7:01 AM

I think I have succeeded, AJ thinks on her own, we aer starting to hold actual conversations which is rally neat, and I have talked to myself before, this is different, uniquely different.

Granted, this is also coming from a perspective that takes issue with extremely undeveloped 'tulpas' (incapable of functioning to any significant degree without large support by the host) being equated to highly developed tulpas that are equivalent in capability to the hosts.

I got lucky.

A character of projected desires can evolve into tulpa eventually. Even if they're not planned to become tulpas , ironically. Also, don't you think those not really independent characters are what people really want?

I wasn't saying that

7:02 AM

I was saying that while your tupp learns to speak, you also have to learn to listen for them.

If people want a character that isn't independent, that's fine.

50 50 was a generalization

I'm not sure that luck is ever really a factor

shrugs

But, don't call that the same thing as a fairly independent and capable tulpa that is the equal to a host.

AJ developed raelly fast, I have no idea why.

7:02 AM

I assumed luck

It isn't necessarily 'better' or 'worse', mind - but they are two separate propositions and should be treated as such. Identifying that difference and not equivocating in language when they are mistaken by people who haven't spent much time in the community is important.

Do people always know what they want? I think if someone achieve what they are content with it's good for them. Anyway, I agree it's arguable if we should call their imaginary friends tulpas.

Otherwise, I am all for accelerating progress - as long as it doesn't carry much (if any) risk of serious suspension of progress (at minimum) in these cases.

7:05 AM

For instance - visualization is a wonderful tool that helps progress, and doesn't carry risk of self-delusion or otherwise making a habit of manouvering a character around and calling it a "tulpa".

7:05 AM

While I won't tell anyone that visualization is necessary, it is a valuable tool, can certainly speed progress, and is perfectly reasonable to recommend.

Doesn't it? I think some people might value visualization of their tulpa over their personality.

I don't think that's a problem with visualization itself, that's just a questionable order of priorities

I would point out that the tulpa having an independent (used colloquially) and developed personality is precisely what sets it apart from an imaginary friend.

Many activities might have advantages and disadvantages in aspect of developing tulpa's independence. Talking to others can spoil tulpa but might help them get independence by making their own relationships, that's an example.

Again. I don't see a problem with people who just want a consistent character they can imagine and interact with. That's fine. But, I think that it is important to differentiate that from a tulpa when they are two separate things.

7:08 AM

Also... "spoil" tulpas?

You know, if they get to wrong environment... Yes, that can spoil them.

Hah. That's true, but that is the risk of literally anyone interacting with anything outside a controlled environment.

7:09 AM

It doesn't prevent the tulpa from developing their own personality and becoming a... for lack of a better term, "fully fledged persona".

I told so many times about this pregnant tulpa and her daughter being pregnant after 2 weeks of existence... Did I mention I did not make this story up?

I am thinking of "good" and "bad" advice in terms of "Does it help the tulpa develop into an independent/capable persona?"

That's how tulpas can be spoiled.

I still don't understand the point of tulpas being pregnant

I would point out that is exposure to negative symbolic practice - in other words, taking bad progress advice rather than simply a problem of exposure to the outside world.

to make another tulpa?

you can make another tulpa without that though

That... is quite literally not how it works.

uhh to make a npc?

"Mental pregnancy" is entirely imagination and symbolism.

7:12 AM

It has no actual point aside from some kind of roleplay. If a developed tulpa wants to do that... okay. Whatever. That's their choice.

7:12 AM

If it is taken in a manner of believing that it will somehow make another tulpa without any actual forcing being done, that is honestly silly.

Well, it's not even about pregnancy, it's about tulpa having cybersex in 2 weeks of their existence. (edited)

I wouldn't disagree that such is negative.

7:13 AM

But then, the reason that is negative is because it can inhibit development, and that is quite honestly something fairly simple to prevent.

why do we even take the topic of tulpa pregnancy seriously?

I don't know.

7:15 AM

I certainly don't.

it's a thing that happens to satisfy inflation fetishists

Tulpa pregnancy is a meme

bam, done

...I don't know if it's quite that.

nope, everything I say is fact

7:16 AM

the sky actually has no color

Anyway.

7:16 AM

What if a tulpa in the beginning is just a projection?

sometimes tulpas develop from things that aren't tulpas, such as servitors and imaginary friends

I actually don't see how this is relevant to good practice for actually developing a tulpa into something more independent.

the answer is who cares, keep developing them and they won't be

a projection can qualify as one of these things, just cuz it doesn't start out as a tulpa doesn't mean it never will be

Have... several in our system like that, srn

I just wanted to say every tulpa was a projection once.

@Deleted User If somebody is discounting self-projected responses and trying to develop something beyond that, then there can be development.

Well, most of them I guess, at least those planned

not necessarily every tulpa

insert astral projection maymay here (edited)

My concern in the first place is that people will simply focus on their own projected thoughts and engage in a 'dialogue with a single participant' - a monologue.

7:19 AM

Which certainly isn't the goal, or really beneficial for the goal.

7:19 AM

At least, the typically stated goal.

people who are legitimately interested in having a tulpa won't stop there though

7:20 AM

they'll ask for help

7:20 AM

or figure it out

7:20 AM

generally, people want a believably independent tulpa

Ostensibly.